Escaping the Drama Triangle

Escaping the Drama Triangle: Transform Conflict into Empowerment (Living Lucky® Podcast)

Ever felt trapped in a cycle of blame, victimhood, and rescue? 😫 In this mind-opening Living Lucky® Podcast episode, Jason and Jana Banana use a hilarious dinner party mishap to break down the Karpman Drama Triangle, a psychological model that explains nearly every conflict. You'll never see arguments the same way again!

This is a powerful masterclass in personal development and self-help, filled with "nuggets of wisdom" to help you transform your relationships:

• Identify Your Role: Recognize the three unconscious roles you play in conflict—Victim, Persecutor, and Rescuer. Learn how even a simple joke can trigger this complex dynamic in real time.
• The Downward Spiral: Understand how the Drama Triangle is contagious and self-perpetuating, creating a "snowball effect" of reactivity that prevents true resolution.
• From Drama to Empowerment: Discover the secret to breaking the cycle. Learn how to transform the Victim into a Creator, the Persecutor into a Challenger, and the Rescuer into a Coach. This simple mindset shift is the key to an upward spiral of growth.
• Internal Triangles: Realize that these patterns aren't just external. We often create them in our own minds through negative self-talk, ganging up on ourselves with internal blame and "what-if" scenarios.
• Awareness is the First Step: The most powerful tool for change is self-awareness. By simply recognizing which role you're playing, you can consciously choose a healthier, more empowering path.

Stop getting drained by unnecessary conflict. This episode will equip you with the emotional intelligence and tools to create healthier relationships and finally escape the drama. 

How to break the drama triangle cycle. Karpman Drama Triangle explained. What are the three roles in conflict? How to stop being a victim. Transforming drama into empowerment. How to improve communication in relationships. Recognizing unconscious conflict patterns. The difference between a rescuer and a coach. What is the role of a challenger in an argument? What is the Karpman Drama Triangle? What are the three roles of the drama triangle? How do I stop being a victim in my relationships? How can I resolve conflicts without drama? H

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*Previously Recorded

Chapters

• 0:00 Creating a Life You Crave

Transcript

Jana Shelfer: 0:00

Are you ready to create a life you crave? Let's spin that doom loop of negativity into an upward success cycle and start Living Lucky®.

Jason Shelfer: 0:14

Good morning.

Jana Shelfer: 0:15

I'm Jana, I'm Jason and we are Living Lucky®. You are too.

Jana Shelfer: 0:19

Jason made a six-year-old cry last night at our dinner party.

Jason Shelfer: 0:24

Yay, now she's Living Lucky®.

Jana Shelfer: 0:26

Oh, it was so embarrassing.

Jason Shelfer: 0:30

Oh, it was nothing.

Jana Shelfer: 0:32

We went to this-.

Jason Shelfer: 0:33

Six-year-olds love to cry.

Jana Shelfer: 0:35

We went to this dinner party and there were a lot of people there. Jason and I were among the last ones to leave. It happens, and as we leave, jason with his sense of humor.

Jason Shelfer: 0:49

It's not a tumor.

Jana Shelfer: 0:51

Which our foreign exchange student used to call it a sense of tumor, because it wasn't always funny. He says oh my gosh, I love this dog so much. Lucy was the dog. I love this dog so much. I'm just going to take it with me. I'm just going to take it home with me. Is was the dog. I love this dog so much. I'm just going to take it with me, I'm just going to take it home with me.

Jason Shelfer: 1:07

Is this the dog we're supposed to take home with us?

Jana Shelfer: 1:10

No, he says this jokingly, to be complimentary to the host, to be a little.

Jason Shelfer: 1:17

The dog was adorable and cute and well behaved.

Jana Shelfer: 1:21

Except Delaney. The six year old busts out crying. She goes over and grabs her best friend, her dog Lucy Snoopy, and she's like get this mean man out of our house.

Jason Shelfer: 1:35

You can't have my dog. Why would he want to take my dog?

Jana Shelfer: 1:39

This is my dog. People can't just walk into our house and take my dog.

Jana Shelfer: 1:45

So she starts having a panic attack, tantrum, and then, of course, her father comes in to be her hero and is like I'm going to keep you safe, honey.

Jana Shelfer: 1:55

Nobody's going to take your dog.

Jana Shelfer: 2:03

Nobody's taking Lucy. In the meantime, Barb, who was another guest that was one of the last to leave. She turns and is like what just happened. Why would you make a six-year-old cry?

Jason Shelfer: 2:13

So now, all of a sudden, what did you say to the six-year-old Jason? She's looking at.

Jana Shelfer: 2:17

Jason like how dare you? And then I get a little offended. I'm like, well, he was just being funny.

Jason Shelfer: 2:24

Mind your business Barb Right.

Jana Shelfer: 2:26

So now, all of a sudden, I've become the either rescuer or the victim in this situation.

Jason Shelfer: 2:34

Victim number two. Victim from the second perpetrator. I'm like offended.

Jana Shelfer: 2:37

I'm like, wait a minute. He didn't do this on purpose and we finally just kind of turned around and snuck out. We said goodbye.

Jason Shelfer: 2:46

Irish goodbye. Yeah, then we kind of went out the Irish back door.

Jana Shelfer: 2:50

We already said goodbye like three times for trying to get out, but people keep asking questions and like holding us.

Jana Shelfer: 2:57

What I have just described to you is something that you may not realize goes on every day in your life In different parts and different pieces of the day. And once you are aware of this dynamic, this recipe, you will say, oh my gosh, I did not realize this was happening and I did not realize that I bought into this.

Jason Shelfer: 3:22

And I keep saying I'll sign up for that role.

Jana Shelfer: 3:25

It's called the Karpman Drama Triangle and it is a theory in psychology and it came up I mean, this was developed back in like 1968 by a psychologist. His last name was Karpman K-A-R-P-M-A-N. If you want to do more research on it. And what he came up with is we are always creating these little drama triangles in our life and if you start watching movies with this knowledge in your head, you are going to say, oh my gosh, I see it, I see it. This is the formula that's happening.

Jason Shelfer: 4:04

Little relationship triangles.

Jana Shelfer: 4:07

Something happens, there's a circumstance that happens, and in this circumstance there is usually a persecutor and a victim. Now, in this particular example, Jason, just being funny, was like I'm going to take this dog home with me. And then Delaney is now the victim. You're stealing my dog. Oh my gosh, Somebody's coming into our house and stealing our dog.

Jason Shelfer: 4:36

He's ruining my life.

Jana Shelfer: 4:39

And then what happens is there's usually if there's a victim somewhere that will create a hero.

Jason Shelfer: 4:44

What happens?

Jana Shelfer: 4:45

is there's usually. If there's a victim somewhere, that will create a hero. There's usually a hero that comes in and tries to rescue the situation, which, in this case, was the father. It was daddy that came in and said honey, nobody's going to take your dog. He lifts her up and he's coddling her and, of course, holding the dog in the other hand, like I'm gonna keep you safe so here I come to save the day, every girl's little dream.

Jana Shelfer: 5:11

All of a sudden daddy is the hero right now. In the meantime, once this triangle starts, then it kind of starts taking on a whole little life of its own and creating other little triangles. Because what happens is then. An outsider, which was Barb, doesn't understand the full scenario here. So she, from an outside perspective sees it and she's like how dare you make a six-year-old cry. And she's looking at Jason with this disdain face you idiot, you a-hole, and now, all of a sudden, without knowing it, Barb has become the persecutor.

Jana Shelfer: 5:58

And now I've become the victim and Jason has become the victim, and then I step in.

Jason Shelfer: 6:03

But I don't sign up for victimology.

Jana Shelfer: 6:06

I know, I know, I know, but for the sake of this podcast, yeah, that's typically the way that works. So now, all of a sudden, jason is the victim in this scenario, and so then I step in to defend him in a way Like oh he didn't do it on purpose. He's just a joke.

Jason Shelfer: 6:25

He loves the dog. We all love the dog. It's a great. Some would say it's a great dog. I know you sound like Trump. Some would say it's the best dog in the world.

Jana Shelfer: 6:39

Anyway. So do you see how this all works? And then, of course, we get in our car and now, all of a sudden, I feel offended in a way that I'm like wait a minute, like why was she blaming you? I mean, I understand why she was blaming Jason, but it just it becomes this big triangle and we all start taking on these roles. Yeah, and like I said, when you start realizing that this is happening not only in your life, it's happening in every story, every movie, every book.

Jason Shelfer: 7:14

there is a Karpman drama triangle and one of the weird things is is we get to kind of decide how deeply or how pronounced we want each of the characters to be. Yes, you know what I'm saying. Yes, like, we get to say, no, I'm going to be the world's best victim, or I'm going to be the world's most heroic hero or rescuer, you know, or I'm just going to be someone that kind of just steps in and kind of guides people Trump's voice because, whatever you feel about politics, trump understands this drama triangle and he is very good at turning the victim role into the hero role.

Jason Shelfer: 8:03

Oh yeah.

Jana Shelfer: 8:04

He's very good at that, In fact if Delaney would have said you know what, If you would like to take my dog home, then I'll come and take your dog.

Jason Shelfer: 8:16

I'll come take your dog and your house and your car.

Jana Shelfer: 8:20

No, she would have said you know what my dog is so playful. Why don't you take her for a day and then return her? Now, all of a sudden, she would have been the hero and we all would have been like, oh, that's so adorable.

Jason Shelfer: 8:30

But she's six, she's learning these things, she's six years old she's still singing that song about don't take my beautiful things.

Jana Shelfer: 8:38

So the reason I bring up this example which it is a lighthearted and fun example is because we can either live in this drama triangle and we don't even realize it is contagious and it starts taking on a life of its own and we all start adjusting these roles. But you can break the cycle, and that was what I was trying to describe when I said we can choose how we react in these circumstances and it will break the cycle.

Jason Shelfer: 9:08

If you recognize it, you have to recognize it first. Then you get to choose to break the cycle.

Jana Shelfer: 9:13

For example, the rescuer hero character could show up as maybe a coach.

Jason Shelfer: 9:23

That's powerful and all of a sudden, that's more empowering right.

Jana Shelfer: 9:27

Because now it's like, hey, you know what. This just happened. You can get through this. How does this make you feel what's happening here and how can we choose to?

Jason Shelfer: 9:36

react differently. What if he meant something different by that? What if he meant he loves your dog? You've got such a wonderful dog here that he would like to have something like that for himself, but he's not going to take your dog.

Jana Shelfer: 9:47

The persecutor role, which is the one you don't even realize you're doing it Like. Jason had no intention of being the persecutor in this situation. But if you think of the persecutor as the creator, now all of a sudden that's a little more powering. Because Jason, when we think about that, jason can say oh my gosh, I have the power to make a six year old cry. I can also make. I also have the power to make a six year old cry I can also make.

Jana Shelfer: 10:17

I also have the power to make a six year old laugh.

Jason Shelfer: 10:19

Right. So that, and that's the whole thing is, I was the creator in that, because I started the creation of the triangle.

Jana Shelfer: 10:27

You did.

Jason Shelfer: 10:29

Yeah. So looking at, okay, if I created this triangle, how might I create a different version of it? That's that looks more powerful and dynamic?

Jana Shelfer: 10:41

So the way, the way to change the label from persecutor to a more empowering creator is to call the persecutor the challenger the challenger. Hey, how would you react if I took your dog home with me? Now you've challenged. It's just a different connotation in communication, but it will change the way we experience the world.

Jason Shelfer: 11:11

Very nice.

Jana Shelfer: 11:12

Right.

Jason Shelfer: 11:13

Yeah, and then all of a sudden, the victim now becomes the world.

Jana Shelfer: 11:14

Very nice, right, yeah? And then, all of a sudden, the victim now becomes the creator of all of this. Okay, yeah, you know what? Maybe my reaction is putting energy into how other people will react.

Jason Shelfer: 11:28

Yes.

Jana Shelfer: 11:28

And it's almost becoming proactive instead of reactive 100%. Okay, so just to like put this all in a little nugget In your life. You may not know this and I may be giving you information that you're going to be like whoa, who knew this was happening in my life?

Jason Shelfer: 11:47

And they'd be like this is way too much.

Jana Shelfer: 11:50

But there's always three characters in a situation, in a story, in any kind of drama that happens and you might be like, well, yeah, but you know what, there's only two characters. When my husband and I get in a fight, there's two characters. Well, when your husband and you get in a fight, the way this drama triangle starts is you leave the conversation or the argument feeling like you have been wronged in some way. So then you call your mom and say, oh my God, I can't believe what my husband did. Well, now she is like oh my God, my son-in-law and it creates this triangle.

Jason Shelfer: 12:36

Or we do it in our own mind. We do it in our own minds and you will listen to your own voice in your minds going I should have. And like you will hear that voice, you'll be like I feel like a victim. I feel like I just got manhandled by my wife, and then you will hear that voice going oh, you should have done this. She never does that. Blah, blah, blah. Like you'll hear that voice come in. And now you've just created this second narrative in your head of the hero and the victim that you're ganging up, building up this evidence wall against your wife or your spouse or whoever it is, and then the next time you see them, you'll dump that on your significant other.

Jana Shelfer: 13:19

So the three roles there is a victim, there's a persecutor and a victim. So those are the two. That's where it starts the persecutor and the victim. And then the third role that comes in is the hero victim. And then the third role that comes in is the hero, and the hero many times will step in and then trying to rescue. And when they do that, then all of a sudden now the persecutor becomes the victim and it just is an exacerbating snowball, is what it is and you'll recognize this like if it's a two-person conversation or a two-person incident.

Jason Shelfer: 13:58

You'll recognize when you're doing it like, let's just say, we're having an argument together and I will consider myself the victim in that. And then I go off and in my head I'll start. I'll create my hero in my head, yeah, so that it throws this blanket over you and creates okay, now it empowers me to say I'm not going to put up with that. Does that make sense?

Jana Shelfer: 14:28

Okay, so I'm just going to rephrase what Jason just said. There is a way to reframe everything that's happening so that it is more empowering for us as we show up. The victim becomes the creator, and the rescuer becomes the coach, and all three of those roles now will put you in an upward that's a healthy way to go through this change instead of the doom loop so big it will put you in a more empowering, where you're not only empowering yourself, you're empowering everyone else around you.

Jason Shelfer: 15:16

Yeah, that's the healthiest way to get out of that cycle.

Jana Shelfer: 15:21

It's a little complicated to explain. I wish I had Visuals. Visuals so that I could really show you. But once you're aware of this, it will change your life. Thanks for joining us. Keep Living Lucky®, bye-bye. Once you're aware of this, it will change your life.

Jason Shelfer: 15:34

Thanks for joining us Keep Living Lucky®.

Jana Shelfer: 15:40

Bye-bye. If the idea of Living Lucky® appeals to you, visit us at www. LivingLucky. com.